CincyBattletech
Campaigns (all) => Archived Campaigns => Invasion Of Terra Campaign '10-'11 => Topic started by: Death or Glory on October 13, 2010, 01:26:55 AM
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If scenario 1 was any indication, then Arrow IV Homing Missiles sailing overhead are going to be a common sight this campaign, however due to general confusion concerning how Arrow IV Homing Missiles are actually targeted (they have to target a specific hex, they have to target a specific mapsheet, they have to be fired in a specific direction, and they can hit anywhere on the board were all suggested at one point before people generally settled on they have to be fired in a specific direction as being the most correct sounding possibility) I decided to dig out my copy of TacOps and see if I could make any sense of the situation. Initially, things looked pretty confusing as the rules in TacOps were vague enough that any of the previously described possibilities could be considered to be correct, however, while consulting the TacOps errata I found the following statement:
Arrow IV Homing Missiles (p. 354)
Under game rules, insert the following bullet before the existing bullets "• An Arrow IV Homing Missile targets a mapsheet, not a hex. On the turn the Arrow IV Homing Missile arrives, the firing player rolls 2d6, on a result of 4+ it strikes the map, on a 2 or 3 the missile fails to hit the map and is lost."
So, to the best of my understanding the procedure for firing Arrow IV Homing Missiles is as follows (assuming they are not being direct fired during the Weapon Attack Phase):
1. The controlling player fires the Arrow IV Homing Missile during the Targeting Phase at a specific mapsheet.
2. On the appropriate Indirect Artillery Attack Phase (as determined by the Indirect Artillery Flight Times table), the controlling player rolls 2d6. On a result of 4+ the Arrow IV Homing Missile successfully arrives at the target mapsheet; on a result of 2 or 3 the missile apparently got bored and wandered off to somewhere else.
3. The controlling player then determines which TAG designated target on the target mapsheet the Arrow IV Homing Missile shall strike. If there are no TAG designated targets on the target mapsheet when the Arrow IV Homing Missile arrives, then the missile explodes harmlessly in midair.
4. The controlling player rolls 2d6. On a result of 4+ the Arrow IV Homing Missile successfully strikes it's target; on a result of 2 or 3 the missile strikes the hex the target was occupying instead.
However, there is one additional aspect of Arrow IV Homing Missiles that needs to be clarified, which I am unable to determine what the correct answer to is:
Do Arrow IV Homing Missiles kill mechwarriors?
Total Warfare specifies six situations in which a mechwarrior is considered to be killed:
1. Destruction of the head.
2. Critical hit to the cockpit.
3. Center torso destroyed by an ammunition explosion with auto-eject disabled.
4. Center torso destroyed by an area effect weapon.
5. Accumulation of six or more pilot hits.
6. Exposure to a hostile environment.
Now, artillery weapons are all area effect weapons (meaning if they destroy the center torso then they kill the pilot) with the singular exception of the Arrow IV Homing Missile, which is.....weird. The rules for an Arrow IV Homing Missile specify that when it strikes its target it delivers 20 points of damage "treated as a hit from a direct-fire ballistic weapon" to its target and delivers 5 points of damage "treated as an area-effect weapon" to "all other units in the target's hex." In addition, the Artillery Ordnance Table specifies the Arrow IV Homing Missile's damage type to be Area-Effect. Thus, does the phrase "treated as a hit from a direct fire ballistic weapon" mean an Arrow IV Homing Missile inflicts 20 points of direct ballistic damage to its target or is it simply supposed to mean the 20 points of damage don't cluster into 5 point groups, but still count as area effect damage? If the 20 points of damage are actually direct ballistic damage, then it leads to very weird situations in which an Arrow IV Homing Missile that hits its target can't kill the pilot, but an Arrow IV Homing Missile that misses its target and hits the hex can kill the pilot. On the flip side, if those 20 points are considered to be area effect damage, then why do they only effect the target and nothing else in the hex?
Getting this question resolved quickly is rather important since the Coalition lost a Crab to center torso destruction from an Arrow IV Homing Missile and the WoB lost an Awesome (with a veteran pilot no less) to center torso destruction from an Arrow IV Homing Missile in Scenario 1. So, are those two mechwarriors dead or alive?
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Checking.
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I'll admit I was relearning a few rules as the game went on....
Pg354 covers this I believe. "This is treated as a hit from a Direct Fire Ballistic weapon"
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4. The controlling player rolls 2d6. On a result of 4+ the Arrow IV Homing Missile successfully strikes it's target; on a result of 2 or 3 the missile strikes the hex the target was occupying instead.
My TAC OPs specifies that if the second roll of 4 fails that the missle is lost, it does not indicate that it strikes the target hex instead, has this been errata'd?
I would assume that the missle would only kill the mech warrior if the head is destroyed, or causes ammo explosions to kill the mechwarrior through pilot hits.
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4. The controlling player rolls 2d6. On a result of 4+ the Arrow IV Homing Missile successfully strikes it's target; on a result of 2 or 3 the missile strikes the hex the target was occupying instead.
My TAC OPs specifies that if the second roll of 4 fails that the missle is lost, it does not indicate that it strikes the target hex instead, has this been errata'd?
I would assume that the missle would only kill the mech warrior if the head is destroyed, or causes ammo explosions to kill the mechwarrior through pilot hits.
Thats correct, because the damage is considered a ballistic hit vs straight up artillery damage,
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My TAC OPs specifies that if the second roll of 4 fails that the missle is lost, it does not indicate that it strikes the target hex instead, has this been errata'd?
Weird, my copy of TacOps states that if the second roll of 4 fails, then the missile strikes the hex the target is occupying and deals 5 area effect damage to everything occupying the hex. Admittedly, I have a very early copy of TacOps, however I can't find anything in the errata to indicate that rule was changed. Either one of us misread things or Catalyst included errata in a later printing that didn't appear in the errata section of the website. Hooray for now being more confused than ever ;D.
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Hey at least the way I am playing it causes less damage than more, as the missle is lost on a failed roll of 4.
My TO is an old one as well.
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Hey at least the way I am playing it causes less damage than more, as the missle is lost on a failed roll of 4.
My TO is an old one as well.
Mine is an older one as well...I'm paraphrasing since I don't have a book with me.
During the TAG phase, the unit designating has make its tag check, then the missiles homing in on that TAG makes a check...on a 4 or better its a direct hit. On 3 or worse they miss and simply blast the hex as D-or-G stated. If the TAG check failed, well those missiles will simply keep on going never to be used again
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During the TAG phase, the unit designating has make its tag check, then the missiles homing in on that TAG makes a check...on a 4 or better its a direct hit. On 3 or worse they miss and simply blast the hex as D-or-G stated. If the TAG check failed, well those missiles will simply keep on going never to be used again
Okay, so in conclusion, if an Arrow IV Homing Missile hits its target it doesn't kill the mechwarrior on center torso destruction, but if an Arrow IV Homing Missile misses its target and instead impacts the target hex, then it does kill the mechwarrior on center torso destruction?
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During the TAG phase, the unit designating has make its tag check, then the missiles homing in on that TAG makes a check...on a 4 or better its a direct hit. On 3 or worse they miss and simply blast the hex as D-or-G stated. If the TAG check failed, well those missiles will simply keep on going never to be used again
Okay, so in conclusion, if an Arrow IV Homing Missile hits its target it doesn't kill the mechwarrior on center torso destruction, but if an Arrow IV Homing Missile misses its target and instead impacts the target hex, then it does kill the mechwarrior on center torso destruction?
Makes enough sense to me.
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Makes enough sense to me.
Okay, well our Crab pilot survived the battle then. Do you remember if you took out the Awesome with a homing or normal arrow IV?
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Makes enough sense to me.
Okay, well our Crab pilot survived the battle then. Do you remember if you took out the Awesome with a homing or normal arrow IV?
It was pure homing rounds, so he's currently alive as well.
(I have my artillery designations written down)
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I used all homing as well. They are written on the bottom of the record sheet in the table provided there for data, for each Catapult.
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I used all homing as well. They are written on the bottom of the record sheet in the table provided there for data, for each Catapult.
I'm not saying I don't trust you, I'm saying that in case the GM's need to see anything I have the sheet I was using for my artillery calcs
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Hey guys, while I'm fine with the ruling, evidently the question went up on CBT not too long ago:
Truly destroyed by Homing artillery (http://www.classicbattletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=71949.0)
So while this ruling is 100% good for our home games, if it came up in "official" play (say, a world-wide event or something), it'd go by this clarification.
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So which ruling are we using? And does it make a difference to the Awesome/Crab?
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Well, I was not going to step in, because you all reached a solution that was agreeable to you all, even if not in accord with my reading of the rules. We will let your agreement, that the pilots live, stand.
This means that the Coalition has a 4/5 mechwarrior, and the WoB have a 3/4 and a 4/5 mechwarrior to be put in other units later.
For the campaign, if anything CT Internal is destroyed, it is totaled and cosigned to the scrapheap. It does not matter if it comes from a PPC, homing Arrow IV, or a country hick wielding a shotgun. IF the CT is gone, so is the mech.
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So which ruling are we using? And does it make a difference to the Awesome/Crab?
As always, we use the ruling the GMs make. For a home game, their word is law.
I just wanted to point out that it's a different ruling than ones used in "official" games - like using culmulative PSRs or floating crits; they won't be found in play at Origins or GenCon, or during CGL-sponsored events. It's a clarity thing, that's all.
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Okay, so for the purposes of scenario 1, the two pilots survived. For the remainder of the campaign, are we going to use the the correct ruling or the ruling we used for scenario 1?
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For the campaign, if anything CT Internal is destroyed, it is totaled and cosigned to the scrapheap. It does not matter if it comes from a PPC, homing Arrow IV, or a country hick wielding a shotgun. IF the CT is gone, so is the mech.
This makes sense to me.
As to pilot deaths, headcapped, crit to cockpit, death by ammo explosions=dead pilot
all else=live pilot and we won't be tracking ejected pilots
right?
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For the campaign, if anything CT Internal is destroyed, it is totaled and cosigned to the scrapheap. It does not matter if it comes from a PPC, homing Arrow IV, or a country hick wielding a shotgun. IF the CT is gone, so is the mech.
This makes sense to me.
As to pilot deaths, headcapped, crit to cockpit, death by ammo explosions=dead pilot
all else=live pilot and we won't be tracking ejected pilots
right?
The Short Version:
Total Warfare specifically mentions that a pilot is automatically killed if the center torso is destroyed via ammunition explosion or if the center torso is destroyed by an area effect weapon, thus the confusion over whether or not Arrow IVs kill pilots. The fact that you can't repair a mech that has suffered center torso destruction from any source has never been called into question. The final GM post was ambiguous (at least for me) as to whether the two pilots surviving was a one time thing or if it will be applied for the remainder of the campaign.
The Long Version:
I'm running late for work, I'll type this up later.
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It will remain for the remainder of the campaign. Pilots must make their ejection rolls (I made them for surviving pilots), and then they survive. You all have good enough doctors, and things are far enough apart, that pilot hits will heal completely.
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It will remain for the remainder of the campaign. Pilots must make their ejection rolls (I made them for surviving pilots), and then they survive. You all have good enough doctors, and things are far enough apart, that pilot hits will heal completely.
Got it, sorry for being such a headache with all of the rules questions.
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You all have good enough doctors, and things are far enough apart, that pilot hits will heal completely.
John. You know what to do.
Zoidberg shirt.
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You all have good enough doctors, and things are far enough apart, that pilot hits will heal completely.
John. You know what to do.
Zoidberg shirt.
I've performed a few mercy killings.