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[Darrian Wolffe]

Yeah, so this is really messed up.  BMR doesn't really touch customizations, though it's repair rules are great.  The issue with StratOps is that most programs or spreadsheets based around it are incorrectly using the Refit Kit-based time multipliers and TN penalties, making them additive.  I finished a conversation with Mike Miller last night and confirmed that they are not; you're supposed to use only the highest one (if you're doing a Class A and a Class D refit, you only use the Class D TN penalty and time multiplier).  This is why we see TNs in the 14-18 range like this on MekHQ



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So I'm going to break down what's about to happen to my -3N Rifleman.

The plan here is to swap the heat sink type to DHS, pull the MLs and AC/5s and ammo, and install PPCs in place of the autocannons (because as fun as flak ammo is, actually being effective is more so).  So here's how I'm breaking this down.  First, I'm going to remove a bunch of stuff.

Remove 10 HS (90 min each)
Remove ML (120 min each)
Remove ML (120 min each)
Remove AC/5 (120 min each)
Remove AC/5 (120 min each)
Remove AC/5 ammo (120 min each)

Times are found in StratOps, Master Repair Table, pg. 183-185

For a total amount of base time of 1,500 minutes of work.  Note that removal of a component is NOT a customization, and thus will not incur the flat +2 penalty for making a custom unit.
Now I look at the Class of Refit.  I'm adding or removing a heat sink, so this falls under a Class C Refit (Maintenance).  A Class C Refit means that everything I do will have its time multiplied by a factor of 2, and there's a flat +2 penalty to the work.  This means that pulling all this stuff off the Rifleman will take 3,000 minutes (7 days of tech time), and have a final modifier of +0 (+2 for Class, -2 for location).  My Veteran Tech has a skill rating of 6, so I'm rolling against a 6.

Refit Class modifiers are found in StratOps, Refit Kit Installation Table, pg 188

All of this is being started on the trip towards New Earth, so since I don't have an available factory for at least 75% the refit time, I don't get the bonus for doing this at a factory.  We have called the DropShip a "maintenance" facility**.  Therefore this will be a -2 bonus to the technician's roll.  

Location-based modifiers are found in StratOps, Location Modifiers Table, pg. 171

IF I FAIL, I can invest the time again, and try again.  That's another 3,000 minutes.  If I roll a 2 on the check, I'll pick up a negative quirk (GM's call), and if I roll a 12, I'll pick up a positive quirk (GM's call). If a 12 is required to succeed, you cannot pick up a positive quirk. Assuming I succeed, I ALSO add all of the removed parts to my warehouse (this is IMPORTANT).

...
Then, once we're on New Earth and can take advantage of the Factory, I'm going to do the hard stuff.

I'm going to switch the heat sink type and add 13 Double Heat Sinks (remember, I've removed all 10 SHS it already had).  I'm also going to install 2 PPCs (1 per arm) and I'm adding 2 tons of armor.  Incidentally, I'm placing the orders for all this stuff pretty much as soon as we leave Asus, so it'll be here in time to actually install it. Remember to do that.
Install 13 DHS (90 minutes each)
Install PPC (RA) (120 minutes each)
Install PPC (LA) (120 minutes each)
Install 32 points armor (5 minutes each)

The base amount of time is 1,570 minutes.  However, this is a Class D Refit, because I'm changing a heat sink type.  This incurs the same +2 TN penalty...and the time multiplier is increased to a x3.  On TOP of that, now I'm actually doing a customization.  This adds a further +2 TN penalty, and then doubles the Refit Kit time multiplier.  Which means my x3 penalty suddenly becomes a x6 penalty.  This part of the customization will take 9,420 minutes, or essentially 20 days.

Customization TN and time penalties are dicussed in the first full paragrah, right-hand column, StratOps pg 189

On the bright side, I'm not going to touch any part of this until I'm actually on New Earth and at the factory.  Since I'm doing at least 75% of the work on a factory site, I get the TN bonus, which from the Location Table referenced earlier, is a -4 modifier.  Which will offset completely the +2 Refit Kit modifier and the +2 Customization modifier.  So, with a base TN of 6 for a Veteran Tech, a +2 for customizing, a +2 for the Class D refit, and a -4 for Factory Conditions, we see a final TN of 6 to pull off the customization.

IF I FAIL, the normal "try again" stuff applies, Oh, and again, 2's and 12's generate quirks.  And that's the whole procedure.

Remember, we are not using Tech Rating (except ClanTech vs IS tech) modifiers, Unit Quality modifiers, or Era Modifiers either****.  As a point of note, this unit would have to add a +6 in cumulative modifiers from those sources if we were using them, for a final TN of 12, or somewhere near 20 if we were using the MekHQ additive procedure.


**Your Dictator DropShip - specifically - is considered a Maintenance Facility.  Other DropShips are not.  This is because DropShip gantries were considered Maintenance Facilities in all prior rules editions, and the separation into the multiple classes in StratOps is a deliberate effort (as per the writer of the section) to torpedo people being able to easily repair or maintain units.
****There is no benefit for using "Additional Tech Teams" as per StratOps pg 171, because those require us to actually use the full Tech Teams rules instead of the "Single Tech with some AsTechs" rules the way the game used for 23 years.  Running, paying for, and having to find room on DropShips for 8-man Tech Teams really, really sucks, so since those penalties aren't in play, neither are the benefits.

[Timberwolfd]

Just for clarification, we are using StratOps' 5 minutes per point of armor as opposed to BMR's 15 minutes per point (?). My current spreadsheets use 15 minutes/point but it is a very easy change (2 cell values).

[Darrian Wolffe]

Just for clarification, we are using StratOps' 5 minutes per point of armor as opposed to BMR's 15 minutes per point (?). My current spreadsheets use 15 minutes/point but it is a very easy change (2 cell values).

Both, actually.

Since we're essentially running BMR Repair Rules alongside StratOps Customization Rules (since customizing rules really only exist in SO), it's 15 minutes/point to repair, and 5 minutes/point in customizations.  I'm aware that doesn't make a ton of sense, but it keeps the two rulesets separate.

[Timberwolfd]

Okay, v5 of the repair and refit calculator sheet has the two refit and repair rules separated.

On the left side of the refit tab there is a box with a drop down next to "Custom?" that toggles the customization time and TN penalty. Rob's Rifleman refit example is loaded by default (Remember to put your mechs into the "Roster" tab so they show up in the drop downs).

[Timberwolfd]

I found a small error in the fifth refit section. The formula in the first yellow TN box wasn't dragged down to the rest of that group of cells. Before you use the fifth refit section, just drag the top yellow cell down to change the formula in the rest of the boxes.

[Black Omega]

Rob,
Is there any difference between a straight customization and changing the model of the mech with a refit kit?  For instance modifying a BJ-1 to BJ-3? or CN-9A to CN-9AL?

[Timberwolfd]

In previous discussions, the answer was that refit kits don't exist until the clan invasion. So even conversions between models are customizations. 
but wait for Rob to confirm.

[Black Omega]

Missed that teensy weensy fact.  Damn.  Even for models that came out before the invasion?

[Timberwolfd]

That was my understanding.

[Ice]

alright just to make sure i understand this right

removing all those items is a total of x amount but can be TN on one roll for all of it?

also heres an example of an issue

if i have 3 items in the first 3 spaces of a torso and i take out the first 2 slots what happens to the item in slot 3?
does it automatically stay in slot 2 or compress?

in same situation if i add an item that would take up the first 3 slots but want to keep the item in that torso would it move to the fourth slot?

at any point in those 2 situations do i need to use the move a component rule or is it assumed to move however i want it in the location?

[Darrian Wolffe]

OK, couple of things:

1) Refit Kits.

Refit kits are fluffed as pre-packed kits containing all of the parts needed and very specific instructions from the manufacturer for their installation, plus parts designed in such a way that they're INTENDED to be installed using nothing more than a Mech Gantry in a DropShip.  These were premired by FWL manufacturers in ~early 3050.

The "refits" described in books such as TRO 3025 (taking the Centurion -9 to the -AL model, for example) are refits, not "refit kits".  A simple refit is  when you take a Mech that has been serving, send it back to the factory, and have it retrofitted to a different spec. 

Basically, a "refit" and a "refit kit" are not synonymous.  Large-scale Mech refits, pre-"refit kit era", involved a process is very similar to an automobile manufacturer's factory recall; hand over your machine, they take it for a while, and send it back to you when it's done.  These refits are done in large batches and they're done for relatively large production runs (ie, they're done for the "Federated Suns" or "all the Wasps in the Davion Brigade of Guards").  They aren't done for individual Mechs unless you go to that factory yourself and ask/pay for it to get done.  That's one reason why refit KITS were so cool; it enabled individual actors to get refits for their machines.

2) Brandon's giant question list

There's two really core ways to do a customization
-Do everything in one go (removal of items, installation of items).  It's handled with one roll.  The downside is that it takes a lot longer, since the removal of all the components will get hit with the "double time" modifier when you're rolling for a customization.  The upside is that you have only a single roll, so there's less chance to fail.  If you have time and a good Tech/good TNs, this is usually the way to go.
-Do the removal of items seperately from the installation of items.  This is what I did with the Rifleman above, and requires you to roll twice.  The upside is that you save a bunch of time removing the items.  The downside is that you have to roll twice, so there's more chance to screw up somewhere.  This is useful for when you're time-crunched and/or time at or near a certain facility is limited.

Regarding your critical slot issues:

if i have 3 items in the first 3 spaces of a torso and i take out the first 2 slots what happens to the item in slot 3?

TECHNICALLY it stays in the same place; it doesn't compress.  This is because moving an item's critical slot location is an A-level refit. However, see the Addendum below.

in same situation if i add an item that would take up the first 3 slots but want to keep the item in that torso would it move to the fourth slot?

You would have to perform a refit to move the item from Slot 3 to Slot 4 to give you space enough to make it happen.  However, see the Addendum below.



ADDENDUM:

So the way I see this happening, AFAIK every Mech designer program out there (read: SSW) will automatically compress slots if you have "Roll Again" slots between critable items.  So if you have a Medium laser in Slot 1, a Small laser in Slot 2, nothing in Slot 3, and a TAG in Slot 4...the program will compress the slots so that the TAG moves to Slot 3.  As far as I'm concerned, compressing critical slots in this manner is fine and does not count as a refit. 

However, if you've got a Medium laser in Slot 1, a Small laser in Slot 2, nothing in Slot 3, and a TAG in Slot 4, and you decide to pull the Small Laser and want to add an IS DHS in the 2-slot gap there...YES, you need to perform the A-level refit to move the TAG to Slot 5 to create a 3-slot gap for the DHS to fit into. 

The difference here is CHOICE.  In the first example, you're not choosing to compress the slots; the programs are going to do it anyway, and there's no statistical difference between an item in Slots 3 or 4 anyway.  In the second example, you're choosing to try and fit something into a Slot Gap where it doesn't normally fit.  You could decide to put the DHS into the slots "below" the TAG and let the empty spaces compress automatically and that would be fine. 

Finally, note that this doesn't matter all that much right now, because basically every Mech has enough empty slots that you *can* just put the DHS "below" the TAG and let the remaining slots compress.  Once we start getting into Endo Steel and Ferro crits, the crit slot shuffle is going to start mattering a WHOLE GODDAMN LOT.

Does this make sense for everyone?  If it doesn't, speak up ASAP.

[Black Omega]

Thanks for the explanation.

[Black Omega]

I have been looking at John's spreadsheet and it looks to me that if you remove the heat sinks on the way to New Earth, then choose changing the heat sink type at the factory, that you are paying the time to remove the heat sinks twice.  Am I doing this wrong?  Am I choosing the wrong drop-down box in the spreadsheet.  I can't figure out what to choose for mods because I can't figure out how long that it will take.

[Timberwolfd]

You are correct that the spreadsheet won't calculate changes in heatsinks, structure, or armor very easily when they are split up like we are doing. The StratOps customization rules expect aggregated changes in one roll because the quality impacts for customization are dire.

With Rob's blessing, I would say remove heatsinks down to the base 10 in the engine as one change. Then change heatsink types based on the 10 heatsinks from the engine as a customization. Then add any additional heatsinks back as a customization.