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Author Topic: SO Customization Rules being reworked  (Read 1450 times)

Darrian Wolffe

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SO Customization Rules being reworked
« on: November 15, 2018, 08:26:27 PM »

From Xotl:

So I'm rewriting the SO customization rules on p. 188 because there's tons of questions as to what kind of refit X is and so on. As such, if there's anything unclear for you, let me know.

While I'm at it, is there anything that's obviously bad about the refit rules? I know I've seen lots of complaints about how refit X should be easier or harder, and I figure I might as well at least see about maybe addressing those while I'm at it. No promises there, though. Try to have it in as soon as you can, end of the weekend at the latest.


Since we've been running SO Customization/Refit rules pretty much as-is, if you have an opinion, get it in ASAP.

I've already broached the topic of the 3050 Refit Kits, and we're talking about "factory refit doesn't literally mean 'a Mech factory'" and "CASE shouldn't be factory-level" right now.

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Ice

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Re: SO Customization Rules being reworked
« Reply #1 on: November 15, 2018, 09:06:50 PM »

Multiple techs working on a mech at once - each if specified for specific items pass or fails

If not the specific items then at least the multiple techs part to reduce time

Also searchlight clarification if it is on all mechs or fluffed installed quirk only
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Timberwolfd

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Re: SO Customization Rules being reworked
« Reply #2 on: November 15, 2018, 09:56:17 PM »

From Xotl:

So I'm rewriting the SO customization rules on p. 188 because there's tons of questions as to what kind of refit X is and so on. As such, if there's anything unclear for you, let me know.

While I'm at it, is there anything that's obviously bad about the refit rules? I know I've seen lots of complaints about how refit X should be easier or harder, and I figure I might as well at least see about maybe addressing those while I'm at it. No promises there, though. Try to have it in as soon as you can, end of the weekend at the latest.


I am probably the source for half of his headaches, lol.


Customization Specific Issues
1. The biggest single rule kerfluffle I have is that the center torso structure is the mech, which makes internal structure type changes particularly funny from a rules and tracking perspective.

2. Changing internal structure in the current rules is punitive beyond reason. Both in game in terms of time and out of game in terms of calculation. Just doing all of the work to move the equipment and such from the original chassis to the new one is a sufficiently large issue under the current rules to obviate the multiplier and punish the player. My inclination here is to simply write the rules for internal change to be either a function of the criticals or of unit tonnage. Tonnage may be the better answer from a continuity across unit type perspective, so vehicles, aerospace, and mechs could all share a common rule structure. Doing it by criticals could be better from a systematic consistency perspective.

3. Set the base case as customization and the refit kit as the special case. There is so little information on what refit kits actually exist and as far as I know, no canon source with precalculated values and contents, that an actual refit kit is simply not the way players use the rules. Also, many players miss that customization has a +2 TN and double time modifier.

4. Make any structural or mechanical system that allocates crit slots have similar rules for installation/customization. Something like for each critical installed, it takes X minutes and a facility of level Y to do the work. So armor types, internal structure types, gyro types, targeting computers, MASC, and engine types all follow the same rule pattern. This would let you have a simple table saying ferro-fibrous armor requires 4 hours per critical and can be done in the field. While this would result in the occasional time difference between IS and Clan tech, it fits in many ways because the IS is not as technically proficient, so of course it is harder to refit their mechs with FF and endo-steel.

5. Reduce categories of refit to 4
Category 1 (Field/Mobile): Any weapons/equipment can be changed so long as the weapon/equipment doesn't have mounting restrictions or split criticals between location. So an LRM-10 can be converted to a large laser or vice versa without getting into the weeds. However, you couldn't add a Heavy Gauss Rifle, Artemis, or an AC/20 split between two locations.
Category 2 (Field/Mobile with difficulty modifier): All other weapon/equipment changes. Armor reallocation and type change for simple armor (standard, ferro-fibrous)
Category 3 (Maintenance/Base): Structural/mechanical systems installation. Simple engines (Std., Light, XL), , simple internal (standard, endo-steel), MASC, CASE, coolant pods, etc.
Category 4 (Factory/Depot): Advanced Systems. Things like torso mounted cockpits, XXL engines, partial wing, composite/reinforced structure, specialist armor (ferro-lamellor, laser-reflective, hardened), etc. Anything that has an ongoing effect during play, whether it is a piloting effect, increased/decreased susceptibility to damage, etc.

6. Clarify whether multiple tech teams and tech teams of different experience can contribute to refits, customizations, and repairs. Something like, TN -1 per regular or better team up to 3 total teams would be where I would start. Green and lower experience levels don't do good enough work to actually assist a more experienced tech team.

7. Get rid of the time multiple for the whole job based on refit type and just add the individual refit pieces together. It's beyond silly that changing some lasers in an arm becomes much more difficult and time consuming because the engine type is being changed and it is silly that two different teams couldn't do the two jobs simultaneously. If the multiplicative factor is removed and times are declared on a per change basis, it will make it easier to use multiple tech teams. Simply add up the time for each task that team will do and the highest TN for all of those tasks for each team. Now it's practical to set your regular team on a number of weapon swaps while your elite team changes the engine type and a veteran team rearmors the mech. For the regular team, you add up the time for each weapon change and then pick the highest TN of all of the changes to roll for. The elite team allocates time for each engine critical changed and rolls against the engine change TN. Same for the veterans with an additional time modifier if the armor allocation changes when the armor type changes. Of course the trade off for getting multiple teams on a mech is that they can each screw up, so each refit group has a chance of failure and quality reduction.

8. Refit kits exist for factory configurations (as opposed to canon customs) to change any mech from configuration 1 to configuration 2. A refit kit allows a refit to be conducted at 1 level lower facility (factory work at a maintenance facility) or at a time/TN bonus at the normal level facility.


Repair, maintenance and so on:
1. Make hip and shoulder actuators regular actuators in terms of replacement mechanics, give them a longer repair time or higher TN to represent them being major jobs, but scrap the whole the hip/shoulder actuator is part of the limb thing. It just forces you into AccountTech to strip everything off of the limb and put it all back on the new limb. You can fluff the techs cursing as they make the swap without making the player slog through all of the swapping repair calculations.

2. Reduce facility types to three. Mobile (another mech's hand, repair/recovery vehicle, and MFB), Basic (DropShips and bases), and Advanced (factories and major maintenance depots).

3. Take the maintain every component individually idea out behind the barn and shoot it Valentine's Day Massacre style. Maintain the whole mech as one roll.



« Last Edit: November 16, 2018, 06:57:13 PM by Timberwolfd »
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Timberwolfd

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Re: SO Customization Rules being reworked
« Reply #3 on: November 15, 2018, 10:12:48 PM »

Will the quality rules be revised as well?
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Timberwolfd

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Re: SO Customization Rules being reworked
« Reply #4 on: November 16, 2018, 10:12:53 PM »

I guess the real question is how much Xotl wants to maintain the current links to the repair tables. I think it makes more sense to decouple them, but that necessitates new mechanics.
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Timberwolfd

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Re: SO Customization Rules being reworked
« Reply #5 on: November 19, 2018, 05:34:28 PM »

Comments on customization document draft:
1. Under Customization Time - "If  the  customization  skill  check  fails,  the  time  required  doubles.  Making  the  task  a  rush  job  or  taking  extra  time  is  also  possible. " This sentence should be reversed so that the doubling from failure is clearly in addition to spending double time or rushing it.
Proposed wording - Technicians may undertake a customization as either a rush job or by taking additional time with modifiers found in table XXX. The total time a customization requires is the sum of the individual modifications times the modifier for the customization type and, finally, multiplied again by the time modifier for either a rush job or taking extra time. If a customization roll fails, double the total time required for the refit.

2. For class D refit, the statement of things requiring 13+ slots on a standard mech will supersede Class A refits involving IS Ferro-Fibrous armor. This is also likely to result in a reading error for internal structure as people stop reading here and don't realize internals are in Class F.

3. Class E refit reference to refit kit is either redundant or incomplete. It is redundant if the reference is to the note on the table, or incomplete if there is some other effect intended specific to engine replacements. (Found it later, it should probably have a "See Refit Kits, below." tag on it (since this version doesn't have page numbers, LOL).)

4. Table values seem punitive on time multiples for D/E. (I had the same reaction for F, until I read that internal changes were treated like an engine install for base time.) I don't see a problem with x8 for single item installs like the gyro. Heat sink changes will be pretty heavily penalized at x8 compared to what the work should be. Heat sink refits may belong in Class C under this rate scheme. Also for heat sinks, is it the number of single heat sinks removed, or the doubles added that drives the time calculation? For engine changes, should the wording be "type and/or rating" or is the current "or" wording intentional? Would it be two refits to change engine type and rating?

5.  Minor point. The last line of refurbishment should read "It  is  not  possible  to  go  beyond  a quality rating  of  F."

6. If practical, please add a second example with advanced tech, like endo-steel, CASE, and an engine change. Maybe, refit a royal mech. Or go for a Warhammer WHM-6R to WHM-6Rk.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2018, 05:36:55 PM by Timberwolfd »
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Darrian Wolffe

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Re: SO Customization Rules being reworked
« Reply #6 on: November 19, 2018, 10:52:27 PM »

4. Table values seem punitive on time multiples for D/E.

The table values include the x2 time modifier and +2 customization TN hard-baked into the numbers. 
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Timberwolfd

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Re: SO Customization Rules being reworked
« Reply #7 on: November 19, 2018, 11:54:00 PM »

4. Table values seem punitive on time multiples for D/E.

The table values include the x2 time modifier and +2 customization TN hard-baked into the numbers. 
I get that. I don't have a problem with the multiples for most changes. Heat sinks are the major hang up, since everything else is a multiple of 1 or few.

If I were to upgrade an Awesome 8Q to a 9M, it'll be a significant portion of the next year before the the mech walks out of the mechbay. Exchange weapons at 120 minutes each (x4 Class A) and adding new weapons (x2 Class C), change 22 SHS to 20 DHS at 90 minutes each (20 or 22x Class D), change engine type and rating at 360 minutes (1 or 2x Class E), and change gyro weight at 200 minutes (Class D).

The total base time is 6x120 + (22x90 or 20x90) + (360 or 720) + 200 = 3080 - 3620 minutes now factor in the Class E modifier of 9x 3,080 = 27,720 --> 57.75 (67.875) days before extra time is considered to get the TN down.

I will grant that this make refit kits much more important, and that is a valid game development goal. However, the corresponding issue is that refit kits will need to be significantly more developed in terms of what kind of refit kits are floating around, how refit kits are generated and how specific they are. Does a refit kit exist to turn an AWS-8Q into an AWS-9M, probably. Does one exist to convert an AWS-8Q to an AWS-11R? Where are the lines drawn? If the design goal is to encourage refit kits, then some rule, like a refit kit exists to take any factory variant to another factory variant if both variants coexist, will be needed.

My autism is showing, time to call it a night.
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Darrian Wolffe

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Re: SO Customization Rules being reworked
« Reply #8 on: November 20, 2018, 02:59:57 AM »

If the design goal is to encourage refit kits

From what I understand, the design goals are twofold:
1) to actually create playtested and well-thought-through rules that cover 95% of cases in a way that is accurate to the fluff
2) to discourage the mindless and rampant automatic customization of everything and to encourage players to use stock Mechs more often (which is also accurate to the fluff)
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Timberwolfd

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Re: SO Customization Rules being reworked
« Reply #9 on: November 20, 2018, 07:58:12 AM »

If the design goal is to encourage refit kits

From what I understand, the design goals are twofold:
1) to actually create playtested and well-thought-through rules that cover 95% of cases in a way that is accurate to the fluff
2) to discourage the mindless and rampant automatic customization of everything and to encourage players to use stock Mechs more often (which is also accurate to the fluff)
*Looks at Dunedain Lance with pride.*
I believe these rules are an improvement on the current rules, generally.
The refit kits lowering the facility level required and reducing time substantively is a good change.
The conflict between fluff/lore refits with Endo-steel and rules based refits is just going to be always be one of those irreconcilable differences that has to be papered over.

My primary issue with the current set up is that the placement of DHS where they are in the refit classes, will result in unwarrantedly long and difficult refits compared to the fluff and reasonably expected difficulty. Just a 10 DHS exchange is 10*90*(4/8) = 3,600/7,200 minutes (7.5/15 days) at a +2/4 mod. Compare that to an engine change at 360*(4/9) = 1440/3240 minutes (3/6.75 days) at a +2/4.

The other issue is reconciling fluff and rule regarding heatsinks in engines. If I buy an engine with DHS in it, does an engine change include DHS change?

Maybe the answer is to have the DHS change be a base number plus 90 minutes per heatsink outside the engine. So, for example, it takes 4 days plus (4/8)x90 minutes per allocated DHS.
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Timberwolfd

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Re: SO Customization Rules being reworked
« Reply #10 on: November 20, 2018, 05:51:47 PM »

Other random thoughts:
Where do things like partial wings fit in? Are they equipment or some other category?
Are inner sphere designs with clan spec equipment considered mixed tech?
Looking at progression of difficulty and the preliminary era rules, it may make more sense to simply shift all refits up a class and no class F ->G refit can be performed. Then reverse it for the Republic era, shifting everything down a class (but not below A).
Given where TNs are landing, if refit kits can be better defined, i would be fine with increasing the modifiers. In the current example, with both extra time and multiple tech teams, the TNs look a bit low.  Refit kits will really reduce the difficulty.

Where is the modifier for mercs coming from?
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Darrian Wolffe

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Re: SO Customization Rules being reworked
« Reply #11 on: November 20, 2018, 08:17:05 PM »

Where is the modifier for mercs coming from?

As yet-unposted Modifiers by Faction & Era Table.
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