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Modern Warfare (1980s+) large-scale

0 (0%)

Modern Warfare (1980s+) skirmish

2 (9.1%)

Vietnam large-scale

0 (0%)

Vietnam skirmish

2 (9.1%)

World War 2 large-scale

4 (18.2%)

World War 2 skirmish

6 (27.3%)

World War 1 large-scale

1 (4.5%)

World War 1 skirmish

1 (4.5%)

Turn of the 20th Century

0 (0%)

Napoleonics Corps-scale

0 (0%)

Napoleonics Division-scale

2 (9.1%)

30 Years War Regiment-scale

0 (0%)

Pike & Shotte Regiment scale

0 (0%)

Medieval large-scale

1 (4.5%)

Medieval skirmish

2 (9.1%)

Dark Ages Large-scale

0 (0%)

Dark Ages skirmish

0 (0%)

Greco-Roman Ancients

1 (4.5%)

Pre-Rome Ancients

0 (0%)

American Civil War large-scale

0 (0%)

American Civil War small-scale

0 (0%)

Modern African skirmish

0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 0

Voting closed: September 04, 2016, 01:29:52 AM

[Darrian Wolffe]

THIS POLL IS OPEN UNTIL 4 SEPTEMBER.  PLEASE VOTE FOR UP TO 3 CHOICES IF YOU'RE INTERESTED IN HISTORICALS AT ALL

So the discussion regarding historicals was relatively well-received by the people who stayed after BattleTech today, so we're following up with this poll.  What (up to) 3 time periods most interest you regarding historical wargaming?

A few notes:
1) skirmish games tend to have between 10-30 miniatures on the table

2) anything defined as "large-scale" would be company-scale on up.  So several platoons and some unit attachments for WW2, several bases each representing a Battalion for Napoleonics, and so forth. 

3) We're looking to stay away from a few game types, mainly due to cost.  Specifically, staying away from Flames of War (WW2 15mm) and Bolt Action (WW2 28mm) because both those games are bloody expensive.  You can buy 100, 10mm Napoleonic infantry for $17 from Old Glory, for example.  We're trying to keep the scale down to keep the costs down.  Ideally we'll all be able to have playable forces for our game for $75 at most.  Additionally, small-scale minis are actually easier to paint and make look table-top ready, for those people who don't like painting (Napoleonic Austrians are literally "Spray-paint white, black wash, drybrush white, dot of flesh for the face, draw a line of brown on the rifle, paint the tops of the shoes black, color the plume whatever color your regiment should have it painted, done").

4) We're looking at starting after the new year, and running 1-2 historical games per quarter (every other month, ideally).  This is IN ADDITION TO, not replacing, BattleTech. 

5) We're going to figure out a time period and rough game scale first, then worry about rulesets and minis.  Note that I will personally source the rules to whatever we end up going with, and I will also supply people with the appropriate Osprey PDF books for reference material for your chosen army - all free of charge.

6) Once we have a Top 3 by acclimation, I'll hold another poll where we vote on what we're actually going to play. 



For those who were concerned: the name of the book I was talking about after-game is "Shattered Sword: The Untold Story of the Battle of Midway", by John Parshall and Anthony Tully.  The other books were "Dreadnought" and "castles of Steel", both by Robert Massie.

[Darrian Wolffe]

Oh, one more thing.  If you don't see a period you like and it's not in the poll, please add it in the comments; the poll-maker crashes if there's more than 25 poll options, so there's a few I left out (American Revolution, for example).

[phlop]

I guess expense of a game is something to consider. If I field 15 mechs and spend $10 a mech, $150 spent. Bolt Action British starter army box has enough plastic figures to assemble 3 to 4 squads, 1 sniper team, a MMG team (metal), a Med. Mortar team (metal), 6lb. artillery piece and crew (metal) along with a plastic Cromwell tank. The German, Russian, US, and Japanese are all similar. This will fill out to 1000 pts. On ebay, one can find a starter army going for under $100 dollars. Initial outlay can be a bit steep, but after that it is filling out any of the other items one may find that they can't live without. In my opinion, not to bad. To do some of the other eras, I have easily spent well over $100 to field an army. 
I have been historically gaming for lots of years and spent a lot of money on figs. ACW and Napoleonics, most rules call for mass quantities of figures. 10 to 12 figs per company. Lots of painting to play a decent sized game.
World War II can be done cheaper in 6mm using GHQ minis. Several good rule set out there. Table size is not a problem. Battlefront by Fire and Fury games is a good set of rules. It is the one set that the historical group that I game with has found to be very good.
Just a couple of my thoughts on this.

[serrate]

That Bolt Action stuff sure is pretty.  (^_^)b  I wouldn't be opposed to it, although with army books/rules, it does seem like it'd be more expensive to start. I REALLY like the idea of a WWII skirmish level game with larger minis than 6mm.

[phlop]

If a person was going to get the rule book, wait as ver. 2 is coming in Sept. The rule book has army lists in it for the major participants. Yes, starting any game from scratch can have a high initial outlay. Think about the new games you may have picked up recently. Infinity, I spent over 100 dollars with books and figures. Most of the games, it seems to me end up costing @ least 100.

[phlop]

Also, if you wanted to see the game being played, Game Time Miniatures has a tournament this weekend. You could stop by and watch the game being played. The shop is in Milford, they just moved into a new store last weekend.

[Darrian Wolffe]

So, Bolt Action has two main issues:
1) it's expensive
2) The rules are essentially 3rd edition 40K with some extra improvement in the pinning and morale rules.  And just like 3e40K, playing multiple platoons with armored support on a 4x4 table looks ludicrous

In terms of playing a WW2 skirmish game, what I'm mainly looking at is something WITHOUT a proscribed scale built into the rules.  That would allow people to purchase 1:72/scale models (or even 10 or 15mm models; 6mm is too small for WW2).  What's the advantage of 1:72-scale?  Follow this link and look at the price:

https://www.amazon.com/Italeri-72-American-Infantry-WWII/dp/B000BMV6G4/ref=pd_sim_21_3?ie=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=VT88N5XFJPRWJ336NV5C

Compare and contrast to Bolt Action's equivalent product:

https://us-store.warlordgames.com/collections/us-army/products/american-infantry-plastic-boxed-set

Half the guys as in 1/72nd, and 2.5 times the price.



If we were to go with a WW2 skirmish ruleset, the ideal would be each person buys a platoon box set for their favorite faction, buys some round washers from Home Depot to mount them on, and we play a game where we only actually field a couple of squads out of the platoon.  Boom, we're all playing for under $50 (and possibly under $25) each.

[serrate]

Watched a demo game of Bolt Action on BoW, and I was impressed with the initiative system, as well as the simplicity of the ruleset. However, I have ZERO experience with other historical rulesets, so as far as I know, there are many that are just as good.

If we were to go with a WW2 skirmish ruleset, the ideal would be each person buys a platoon box set for their favorite faction, buys some round washers from Home Depot to mount them on, and we play a game where we only actually field a couple of squads out of the platoon.  Boom, we're all playing for under $50 (and possibly under $25) each.

I feel like I'm starting to lean more towards WWII skirmish than large-scale, but we're not at that point in the voting process yet anyway. Either way, cheap models sounds very good.

[phlop]

No problem for me, I will be gaming Bolt Action, as I already have an army.

[Darrian Wolffe]

No problem for me, I will be gaming Bolt Action, as I already have an army.

Phil, would you have a problem playing against people using a non-28mm miniatures scale?  Bolt Action uses True Line of Sight, so models smaller than 28mm have an advantage in terms of cover and concealment.  If - IF - we were to take up Bolt Action as our first historical game, I think people would like to be using a smaller scale to look better on the table and save some (a lot, actually) of their money.

If not, it's OK.  Again, if we were to take up BA, then there's alternate manufacturers (for example, I'm looking hard at Perry Bros. 28mm British Desert Rats)...but in ALL cases re: 28mm, buying vehicles gets really expensive, really fast, irrespective of manufacturer.  And from everything I've researched about it, BA rewards you for taking vehicles over infantry.

Note to everyone else: if we were to pick up BA, the idea would be that we'd artificially limit army lists to their historical approximations.  That is, if you were playing Germans, taking an army list composed of "2, 5-man Green infantry squads with maximum assault rifles and panzerfausts(ie, the minimum possible), and a flamethrower-equipped armored car, a tank, a field artillery piece, and a halftrack" is precisely the sort of thing I'd want to discourage.  BA does reward list min-maxing, and that's a meta arms race I'd really, really like to avoid.

[phlop]

The game can be meta gamed, as most point based systems are. Most tournaments held, state no vehicle flamethrowers. The rules are being rewritten, V2 is due out in Sept. Flamethrowers have been cut down, arty is being changed. Most of the changes are trying to get it to the infantry based game that it was originally intended. Some people just have to have their vehicles.
Not sure how it would work out with using smaller scale minis.
Perry Miniatures are used by a lot of people, there are several other manufacturers of the same scale.
I have been buying the Bolt Action figs for well over a year, so the cost originally was just for the starter box. I have since picked up a Firefly, Churchill, 3 Universal carriers, Daimler AC, 2 Halftracks, and some assorted auxiliary packs to get my flamethrower team, Officer staff and medic, Commando squad, Forward Observer with asst. This probably works out to me spending maybe $30 a month on my hobby for figs. With this, I don't have much more that I am going to buy.
One of the guys in the historical group that I gamed with for years has a Commie Chinese army and all the figs are from someone other than Warlord Games. With that the three guys that do BA have multiple armies. They have a lot more discretionary funds than I do. 

[phlop]

One other thing, Bolt Action is a head to head game.

[Darrian Wolffe]

All right everybody, I'm going to bring this to a close on Sunday night.  I know it's early, but it occurs to me that there's usually Labor Day sales on minis, so if we can figure out what we need(ish) by then we can take advantage of those.

I'll put up a new poll with the top 3 vote-getters.  Right now, those periods are WW2 skirmish, WW2 large-scale, and a 4-way tie between Division-scale Napoleonics, Medieval Skirmish, Vietnam Skirmish, and Modern Warfare Skirmish. 

If you want to vote, or to change your votes, do it QUICK.

[Ice]

I'd like small scale ww2 with occasional large scale battles like dday etc

[Riegien]

I've got the Perry infantry for Rommel's troops if you want to see them Rob, as well as some standard BA germans.  I'll be down over this weekend if you want to take a look at them.  I also have heard of groups using the BA ruleset at 15mm scale and it working well enough.  Just treat each base as a full squad and keep track of casualties.