CincyBattletech

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Reactor: Online.  Sensors: Online.  Weapons: Online.  All systems nominal.

Pages: [1] 2

Author Topic: Land-Air-Mechs in campaign play  (Read 1783 times)

Darrian Wolffe

  • Hazen
  • Administrator
  • Colonel
  • *****
  • Posts: 4870
    • View Profile
Land-Air-Mechs in campaign play
« on: February 05, 2018, 05:44:12 PM »

OK, so here's how LAMs are now supported in AtB with the patch integrating their rules from Interstellar Operations:

AtB LAM stuff:
-Monthly maintenance on a LAM is $15,000 CB/month.
-All location replacement costs are tripled.  This has no effect on the Sell Value of the LAM.
-Cockpit, Avionics, Sensor, and Life Support costs are doubled.  This has no effect on the Sell Value of the LAM.
-LAM Actuators (not including Foot and Hands) are also part of the conversion process, and therefore cannot be purchased and must be hand-made.  Each hand-made component requires a Tech to do nothing else for 2 weeks and make a Tech Roll at a +2 penalty (with location bonuses), and costs the same as a limb replacement.  If you fail the Tech roll, that money is lost.
-Pilots require Gunnery and Piloting skills for both BattleMech and AeroSpace Fighter unit types.  These pilots are physically impossible to generate using standard AtB generation rules, which means pilots must start off as either AeroSpace or MechWarriors and use XP to train up the other skills (an untrained person has a score of 7/7).
-Customizations or refits (ie, any Tech rolls which aren't repairs) involving LAMs have an inherent +5 penalty, regardless of the Class of customization
-Repairs to a LAM have an inherent +2 penalty
-Refueling your LAM is required after each mission, whether you used the fuel or not, requiring $2,000 CB
-Each month, roll 2d6.  On an 8+, a random actuator fails and must be replaced.  A hip or shoulder actuator failure requires replacement of the entire limb's internal structure, as per a standard hip or shoulder actuator critical hit.

........................................


I'm not going to lie, I'm tempted to change some of this - notably, the physical impossibility of EVER generating a LAM pilot via AtB piloting tables, and the frankly punitive chance of a random actuator failure every game month.  However, I wanted to get other people's thoughts first.  I don't particularly want LAMs to play a huge part in the campaign, and I'm leaning towards simply selling the LAM I randomly got anyway.  However, I know that there's at least 2 other people who like LAMs and who might want to use them at some point, so I want to have this discussion up front now that we have a starting point on it.
Logged

Ice

  • Over-Caffinated, Over-Sexed, and Over Here
  • Colonel
  • *******
  • Posts: 3175
  • I BROUGHT MY HAMMER/GOD HAVE MERCY FOR WHOM I FACE
    • View Profile
Re: Land-Air-Mechs in campaign play
« Reply #1 on: February 05, 2018, 05:55:09 PM »

Holy hell I guess that explains why research and stuff takes so damn long for them
Logged
Die Clanner!!!!

Timberwolfd

  • Administrator
  • Major
  • *****
  • Posts: 2953
  • Kibitzing from the sidelines
    • View Profile
Re: Land-Air-Mechs in campaign play
« Reply #2 on: February 05, 2018, 06:09:58 PM »

1. I would approach the pilot issue from a commonality of skills perspective. Much of the burden of piloting a mech, vehicle, etc. is learning where the controls are and what they do. Similarly, there is a lot of commonality in gunnery with regard to target lede and such. So I would allow a pilot generated with mech skills to have up to 1/2 of that skill level in piloting and vice versa.

Elite/Regular
Veteran/Green
Regular/Green
Green/FU

2. Allowing techs to make actuators ahead of time is fine with me, just add a day's worth of time in the maintenance bay to test that your new foot actuator is actually working and correctly made. Leave most of the other maintenance stuff alone.

3. Fuel should just be rolled into the maintenance costs or considered to already be included. A separate 2k charge per fight is just ridiculous nickel and diming on to of a 50x increase in maintenance costs.

4. If the random failure is included, I would decouple the hip/shoulder actuator from the limb, or otherwise exclude those actuators. I would definitely increase the failure TN to at least 10+. Every sixth month on average, I could see a high maintenance rattletrap having trouble. Every other month is a bit much.
Logged

Darrian Wolffe

  • Hazen
  • Administrator
  • Colonel
  • *****
  • Posts: 4870
    • View Profile
Re: Land-Air-Mechs in campaign play
« Reply #3 on: February 05, 2018, 06:34:30 PM »

2. Allowing techs to make actuators ahead of time is fine with me, just add a day's worth of time in the maintenance bay

It doesn't.  You can only create them when you need a replacement, not ahead of time. 
 
Quote
4. If the random failure is included, I would decouple the hip/shoulder actuator from the limb, or otherwise exclude those actuators. I would definitely increase the failure TN to at least 10+. Every sixth month on average, I could see a high maintenance rattletrap having trouble. Every other month is a bit much.

It's EVERY month, actually.  And yeah, every month, you have a 40% chance of a random failure, 20% of THOSE require the replacement of the triple-cost limb AND takes a Tech out of commission for 2 weeks to have a 40% chance of hand-crafting the replacement actuator.  Oh, and your repairs to said actuator and limb are going to fail ~50% of the time while using a Veteran Tech due to the +2 repair modifier.

Also, the more I think about this, the more I think the biggest F-U in here is the fact that all those ludicrously high prices have no effect on the Selling Value of the unit.  LAMs should be fairly rare and should be hangar queens.  I don't WANT LAMs to be a common thing in this unit.

But godDAMN is this unnecessarily punitive.  Remember, at this same time, the Mariks have entire Battalions of LAMs (3 or them, IIRC), Kuritans and Davions both field several complete companies of them, and the Goons have a full company, plus several more scattered about.
Logged

Timberwolfd

  • Administrator
  • Major
  • *****
  • Posts: 2953
  • Kibitzing from the sidelines
    • View Profile
Re: Land-Air-Mechs in campaign play
« Reply #4 on: February 05, 2018, 07:07:47 PM »

2. Allowing techs to make actuators ahead of time is fine with me, just add a day's worth of time in the maintenance bay

It doesn't.  You can only create them when you need a replacement, not ahead of time. 
I meant that changing the rules to allow stockpiling would be fine with me.


4. If the random failure is included, I would decouple the hip/shoulder actuator from the limb, or otherwise exclude those actuators. I would definitely increase the failure TN to at least 10+. Every sixth month on average, I could see a high maintenance rattletrap having trouble. Every other month is a bit much.

It's EVERY month, actually.  And yeah, every month, you have a 40% chance of a random failure, 20% of THOSE require the replacement of the triple-cost limb AND takes a Tech out of commission for 2 weeks to have a 40% chance of hand-crafting the replacement actuator.  Oh, and your repairs to said actuator and limb are going to fail ~50% of the time while using a Veteran Tech due to the +2 repair modifier.

Also, the more I think about this, the more I think the biggest F-U in here is the fact that all those ludicrously high prices have no effect on the Selling Value of the unit.  LAMs should be fairly rare and should be hangar queens.  I don't WANT LAMs to be a common thing in this unit.

But godDAMN is this unnecessarily punitive.  Remember, at this same time, the Mariks have entire Battalions of LAMs (3 or them, IIRC), Kuritans and Davions both field several complete companies of them, and the Goons have a full company, plus several more scattered about.
I was generalizing the 40% failure to be about every other month. Knocking the TN to 10+ makes it about every 6 months. Much higher of a TN and the roll just becomes a pro forma check on the bad luck lottery, much lower and it's a screw you. Then either exempt hips and shoulders or say that for LAMs the hips and shoulders are different because LAM and can be replaced independent of the limb.
Logged

Black Omega

  • Unrepentant Kell Hound Fanboy
  • Captain
  • ******
  • Posts: 2481
    • View Profile
Re: Land-Air-Mechs in campaign play
« Reply #5 on: February 05, 2018, 09:39:03 PM »

I think it just goes to show again how much TPTB hate the things and do everything in their power to discourage their use.

As you said, Marik, Davion and Kurita all had formations of the things.  Note here these were house military units.  They can afford the maintenance on them.  Dragoons were "special" anyway.  Kell Hounds had a few but eventually got rid of them.  There is no way a small merc command could ever afford to keep one operational.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2018, 09:44:39 PM by Black Omega »
Logged
"Slavish adherence to formal ritual is a sign that one has nothing better to think about."

agustaaquila

  • Backstabbing Capellan
  • Lieutenant J.G.
  • *****
  • Posts: 1376
    • View Profile
Re: Land-Air-Mechs in campaign play
« Reply #6 on: February 05, 2018, 10:01:05 PM »

Here's the thing though.... we are nowhere near a small merc command right now.  We are almost regiment size, and should be able to support a lam or two.

On topic, those rules are insane.  I would almost thinks lams need no special rules, we already have the monstrosity that is the mpl jumping firestarter.  What lams gain in ho hit modifiers they pay in equipment tonnage that could be used for armor and weapons.  In a world where jumping mechs can generate 4, I find nothing wrong with a lam generating 5. 

I say throw out the special rules and just let lams be.
Logged

Timberwolfd

  • Administrator
  • Major
  • *****
  • Posts: 2953
  • Kibitzing from the sidelines
    • View Profile
Re: Land-Air-Mechs in campaign play
« Reply #7 on: February 05, 2018, 10:05:20 PM »

On topic, those rules are insane.  I would almost thinks lams need no special rules, we already have the monstrosity that is the mpl jumping firestarter. 
And what, pray tell, is monstrous about a Firestarter with medium pulse lasers?
Logged

Darrian Wolffe

  • Hazen
  • Administrator
  • Colonel
  • *****
  • Posts: 4870
    • View Profile
Re: Land-Air-Mechs in campaign play
« Reply #8 on: February 05, 2018, 10:28:45 PM »

And what, pray tell, is monstrous about a Firestarter with medium pulse lasers?

The same thing that's wrong with literally everything else that can generate a +4 TMM, avoid airborne unit rules, take advantage of terrain (read: Heavy Woods) and carry pulse lasers at the same time.  It breaks the RNG curve.  It's the exact same argument people use against the old superjumping LAM rules.  If it's valid then, it's valid now.  Note that I don't actually have a PROBLEM with units that can do that - I'm simply pointing out the factual reason why FASA got rid of the superjump rules.  

..............................................

Anyway, here's my point-by-point thoughts on this now that I've had some time to think:

-Monthly maintenance on a LAM is $15,000 CB/month.

Honestly, this isn't that bad, if it weren't for the current maintenance rules for every other unit type.  Maintenance costs are retardedly low as it is; $300/month for a Mech is a rounding error given the sums a merc unit deals with.  If Mech Maintenance costs were $3,000/month, and LAMs were $15,000/month, that would totally make sense.  As-is, I'm considering changing it to $5,000/month, which is at least enough of a cost you have to NOTICE.

-All location replacement costs are tripled.  This has no effect on the Sell Value of the LAM.

Don't actually have a huge issue with this; the transform-y bits should be expensive.  No effect on the Sell Value is still horseshit, but I'll deal with that later.


-Cockpit, Avionics, Sensor, and Life Support costs are doubled.  This has no effect on the Sell Value of the LAM.

Again, also not a huge problem.  You're duplicating the functionality of an ASF and a Mech at the same time; double the price for double the function seems reasonable.  Same comment re: Sell Value.

-LAM Actuators (not including Foot and Hands) are also part of the conversion process, and therefore cannot be purchased and must be hand-made.  Each hand-made component requires a Tech to do nothing else for 2 weeks and make a Tech Roll at a +2 penalty (with location bonuses), and costs the same as a limb replacement.  If you fail the Tech roll, that money is lost.

Post-3052, this is actually reasonable, as the only production facility in the IS has been destroyed.  For it to be true at all times is dumb.  I wouldn't allow pre-stockpiling handmade parts from a purely gameplay perspective, anyway.  My take on this is "LAM Actuators cost triple the standard amount, and have a +2 availability modifier.  This modifier becomes a +4 after 3055 once stocks have run low."

-Pilots require Gunnery and Piloting skills for both BattleMech and AeroSpace Fighter unit types.  These pilots are physically impossible to generate using standard AtB generation rules, which means pilots must start off as either AeroSpace or MechWarriors and use XP to train up the other skills (an untrained person has a score of 7/7).

Pilots SHOULD require both ASF and Mech G/P scores.  It's simply a failure of programming that you can't generate these otherwise.  I'd put this as "if you want to hire a LAM pilot, ask the GM and he'll generate something.  LAM pilots get paid as an ASF pilot AND a Mech pilot with approrpiate skill levels".

-Customizations or refits (ie, any Tech rolls which aren't repairs) involving LAMs have an inherent +5 penalty, regardless of the Class of customization / -Repairs to a LAM have an inherent +2 penalty

These are both pretty ridiculous.  That effectively makes all custom work impossible, when we have canon field refits of the things.  I'd adjust the modifiers to +3 and +1, respectively.

-Refueling your LAM is required after each mission, whether you used the fuel or not, requiring $2,000 CB

I get the thought process behind this.  You don't leave military aircraft fueled during downtime.  You drain the fuel, thus requiring refueling.  Where this gets idiotic is the Campaign Companion cost for ASF fuel is something like "5 tons gas = $1,000 CB", and a LAM only carries 1 ton of onboard fuel.  I agree with Jon and would simply ignore this and roll it into monthly maintenance costs, or fiat it and say that "LAMs always require $1,000 CB of fuel/month no matter what; add this to the $5,000 CB revised maintenance cost."

-Each month, roll 2d6.  On an 8+, a random actuator fails and must be replaced.  A hip or shoulder actuator failure requires replacement of the entire limb's internal structure, as per a standard hip or shoulder actuator critical hit.

Yeah, I'm sorry, but no.  None of this is OK.  No part of this should be allowed, it's totally opposed to both every bit of fluff about Mechs and the existing fluff about LAMs (such as flying one out of a stockpile where it'd been sitting for a decade on Pacifica in Crescent Hawks Inception).  Yes, LAMs can be somewhat unreliable.  This goes beyond that, especially when combined with the "triple-cost" shit and "must rebuild actuator from scratch" rules.  IMO, this should be scrapped entirely.  LAMs can still be classified as hangar queens because their spare parts are hard to come by and repairs on them are harder, resulting in greater failure chances and thus more downtime.

Finally, regarding Sell Value, my druthers here is to flat triple the buying price AND selling price of all LAMs.  That is, if a Stinger LAM normally costs $2million to buy, it now costs $6million and sells for half of THAT price (ie, $3million).  This makes up somewhat for the inflated part values, and probably more accurately represents their rarity.

Comments?
Logged

Timberwolfd

  • Administrator
  • Major
  • *****
  • Posts: 2953
  • Kibitzing from the sidelines
    • View Profile
Re: Land-Air-Mechs in campaign play
« Reply #9 on: February 05, 2018, 10:42:49 PM »

Silly questions
1. Does the LAM belong in our air lance?
2. How many LAM pilots are there running around to hire?

(Note, I don't have any particular issues with the rules Rob has posted. Rob, you realize you have created a need for a rules doc v2-3 in the nearish future...)
Logged

Darrian Wolffe

  • Hazen
  • Administrator
  • Colonel
  • *****
  • Posts: 4870
    • View Profile
Re: Land-Air-Mechs in campaign play
« Reply #10 on: February 05, 2018, 10:51:46 PM »

Silly questions
1. Does the LAM belong in our air lance?
2. How many LAM pilots are there running around to hire?

(Note, I don't have any particular issues with the rules Rob has posted. Rob, you realize you have created a need for a rules doc v2-3 in the nearish future...)

1. Never ever ever.
2. Strictly speaking, zero.  Forever.  Hence a human GM rather than a computer.
Rules:. Yeah, I know.  Or an addendum, anyway.
Logged

Timberwolfd

  • Administrator
  • Major
  • *****
  • Posts: 2953
  • Kibitzing from the sidelines
    • View Profile
Re: Land-Air-Mechs in campaign play
« Reply #11 on: February 05, 2018, 10:54:46 PM »


Logged

Black Omega

  • Unrepentant Kell Hound Fanboy
  • Captain
  • ******
  • Posts: 2481
    • View Profile
Re: Land-Air-Mechs in campaign play
« Reply #12 on: May 20, 2018, 10:28:57 AM »

Rob,
I found the parts of the rules that we were talking about yesterday.  I am going to church now.  I will post directions end explain my thoughts this afternoon.
Logged
"Slavish adherence to formal ritual is a sign that one has nothing better to think about."

Darrian Wolffe

  • Hazen
  • Administrator
  • Colonel
  • *****
  • Posts: 4870
    • View Profile
Re: Land-Air-Mechs in campaign play
« Reply #13 on: May 20, 2018, 10:52:39 AM »

Rob,
I found the parts of the rules that we were talking about yesterday.  I am going to church now.  I will post directions end explain my thoughts this afternoon.

I did too.  I was wrong, though I maintain that there's a ton of room to interpret the "rules as written" in both directions.  While I was deleting all those references to advanced movement rule modes and TO page numbers, I also inadvertently took out about 1.5 sentences which clarified things somewhat.  I'm still going to end up writing a LAM rules summary from scratch in plain goddamn English without referencing 3 other rulebooks.

Logged

Black Omega

  • Unrepentant Kell Hound Fanboy
  • Captain
  • ******
  • Posts: 2481
    • View Profile
Re: Land-Air-Mechs in campaign play
« Reply #14 on: May 20, 2018, 03:09:30 PM »

Here's what I found.
1] in IO, page 108, under airmech cruise/flank it mentions that LAM's move like wige [pg 55 TW] except as modified below....
2] On TW pg 55 under elevation changes, a wige auto gains 1 lvl to maintain 1 lvl over current terrain however wige cannot enter hex whose lvl is 2 or greater than current hex [I take that as trees, cliff, 2 story home etc].
3] Back to IO, pg 108, under gaining elevation, the LAM may gain elevation as VTOL at 1/hex so they may pop over trees but it must pay for the additional elevation change.

My interpretation of this in the IO example is: say the LAM makes 1 hex left turn at hex C instead of D.  It does not need turn mode roll but because of flank, still needs skid roll.  The next hex has trees so the cost is 1 mp for hex, 0 mp for one lvl free elevation change, and 1 mp for VTOL boost to get to elevation 3 to clear trees.  If the extra mp is not paid, then the LAM's legs scrape the treetops [see going in].  An LAM could clear a 4 story building hex by spending 3 additional mp for VTOL elevation boost to elevation 5.
Logged
"Slavish adherence to formal ritual is a sign that one has nothing better to think about."
Pages: [1] 2