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[Darrian Wolffe]

What other choices do I have for C3 Masters?

None.

Stalker, Longbow, Victor, Battlemaster, Orion, Grasshopper, Gallant, Cataphract, Caesar, Battleaxe, Crusader, Quickdraw, Argus, Black Hawk KU, Wolverine, Centurion, Ghost, Blackjack, Blackjack Omni, Hellspawn, Axman, Hachetman, Marauder

That's the list of chassis I just went through the Sarna articles on.  Those are basically every viable chassis we have available upon which to mount a C3 master (I'm not checking on a Javelin or something).  None of them include a C3 master in a variant model available to us (the BattleMaster has one).

So our options are: Cyclops, Avatar, Fennec.  That's it.  To be fair, the FS has always been historically short of C3 Master units - and especially in this BV bracket.

Secondly, I can not verify that the Firestarter FS9-M3 is actually a canon unit.  Even its mentioning on sarna has a "citation needed" tag.  However, as Steve's post mentioned the FS9-S3 instead of the FS9-M3 this appears to be a typo on Rob's part.

The S3 isn't on Sarna and wasn't in my SSW.  I thought STEVE typo'd and meant the M3.  What's the S3 version's source?

Also, the [citation needed] isn't on the Mech itself, but is on the BV2 value, the M3 was published in Record Sheets:MechWarrior Dark Age (which were all BV1s) and hasn't been reprinted with a BV2 since.

[serrate]

Alrighty, since nobody has confessed his undying love for the Cyclops, looks like I'm buying a Fennec! I'm happy about it, I think it's a cool-looking mech.

Any preference on which mech I drop, the Javelin or the Enforcer III?

[Darrian Wolffe]

Alrighty, since nobody has confessed his undying love for the Cyclops, looks like I'm buying a Fennec! I'm happy about it, I think it's a cool-looking mech.

Any preference on which mech I drop, the Javelin or the Enforcer III?

Actually, the CP-11-C model of the Cyclops isn't awful.  It's on our list, mounts a single C3 Master computer, and ends up with a Gauss Rifle, a medium laser battery and 2 extra tons of armor.  Given we already have a Fennec, a more durable C3M platform may not be a bad idea.

Also, if anybody can massage the list to make it spit out a Battlemaster -M3 (LGR, MML5, x2 LPPCs, x2 MPL, Heavy Ferro, and a C3 Master for 1674 BV2), I'd appreciate it.

[Death or Glory]

The S3 isn't on Sarna and wasn't in my SSW.  I thought STEVE typo'd and meant the M3.  What's the S3 version's source?

Also, the [citation needed] isn't on the Mech itself, but is on the BV2 value, the M3 was published in Record Sheets:MechWarrior Dark Age (which were all BV1s) and hasn't been reprinted with a BV2 since.

The Firestarter FS9-S3 is a Jihad Era variant of the Firestarter that was introduced with Record Sheets: 3050 Upgrade Unabridged, Inner Sphere.  Because it was introduced with a record sheet product, I can only really guess at what its fluff is supposed to be based off of its date of introduction and availability listings on the MUL.  It appears to be a variant that was developed by the Lyrans and deployed by them during the Jihad.  It looks like it was sold pretty widely on the open market after the Jihad as it shows up on the Lyran Commonwealth, Federated Suns, Free Worlds League, Mercenary, and Republic of the Sphere faction lists for the Republic Era.

It looks like the Firestarter FS9-M3 just got published again in TRO: 3145 Lyran Commonwealth.  It clocks in at 866 BV2.  Its fluff mentions that it is mainly used by the Lyran Commonwealth, but it is also apparently a very popular design among mercenaries.  The Federated Suns is not mentioned as using the design.

[Darrian Wolffe]

It looks like the Firestarter FS9-M3 just got published again in TRO: 3145 Lyran Commonwealth.  It clocks in at 866 BV2.  Its fluff mentions that it is mainly used by the Lyran Commonwealth, but it is also apparently a very popular design among mercenaries.  The Federated Suns is not mentioned as using the design.

The problem with using that as a metric is that TROs are not all-exclusive records of "who uses what".  The CapCon is not listed in the TRO as using the Marshall, for example, yet they very definitely do.

And if we're looking at sources...the Swordsworn in MWDA very definitely (I'm pretty sure; I cannot find the pilot dossier to prove it, but Fire for Effect was the artillery-centric supplement and a Firestarter with TAG would have fit into the overall set construction) had the Firestarter mini which became the -M3 (found in the Fire for Effect set).

[Death or Glory]

The problem with using that as a metric is that TROs are not all-exclusive records of "who uses what".  The CapCon is not listed in the TRO as using the Marshall, for example, yet they very definitely do.

And if we're looking at sources...the Swordsworn in MWDA very definitely had the Firestarter mini which became the -M3 (found in the Fire for Effect set).

1.  Although TROs aren't the end all be all of "who uses what," they are at the very least a good indication of who commonly uses what designs at the time of the TRO's in universe publication date.
2.  I fail to see how what units a pirate band in Prefecture IV managed to steal from RAF stockpiles or purchase on the open market has any relevance on what battlemechs an AFFS unit from the Periphery March would have access to a decade after that pirate band ceases to exist.
3.  If we're using Swordsworn and House Davion MWDA minis for faction availability, then lets replace our Cavaliers with Elementals or Purifiers.
4.  The Firestarter FS9-M3 is at best a GM call.

Edit: That came out more confrontational and hostile sounding than I meant it to, sorry.

[Darrian Wolffe]

4.  The Firestarter FS9-M3 is at best a GM call.

Agreed.  I was just pointing out that there's arguments in both directions until the MUL is updated.

[Death or Glory]

Pragmatic question time, are we going to go with three independent C3 lances or is someone going to bite the bullet and take a Cyclops, so we can have a C3 company?

[serrate]

Pragmatic question time, are we going to go with three independent C3 lances or is someone going to bite the bullet and take a Cyclops, so we can have a C3 company?

It's only 2 lances, not 3. At this point, it's the following:

Javelin - slave
Enforcer III - slave
Fennec - master
Thunderbolt - slave
Axman - slave
Axman - slave
Warhammer - slave
Thanatos - slave

Not including the Avatar, because making it a leader of a C3 lance means it's stuck in a single configuration, which kind of sucks. So, the question on the table is whether or not to take another Fennec or make it the single-c3master Cyclops?

Rob says the Cyclops is more durable, and I voted for another Fennec. Why don't you break the tie? 

This unit will be replacing either the Javelin or Enforcer, so that also needs to be decided and it doesn't really matter to me. They're both excellent mechs for their roles, as well as traditional FedSun units.

[Death or Glory]

Not including the Avatar, because making it a leader of a C3 lance means it's stuck in a single configuration, which kind of sucks. So, the question on the table is whether or not to take another Fennec or make it the single-c3master Cyclops?

Rob says the Cyclops is more durable, and I voted for another Fennec. Why don't you break the tie? 

I personally like the Fennec better than the Cyclops, but Mike's CO, so if anyone gets to cast a tie breaking vote, then its him.  Also, its your mech choice, so your vote outweighs all of ours combined.

This unit will be replacing either the Javelin or Enforcer, so that also needs to be decided and it doesn't really matter to me. They're both excellent mechs for their roles, as well as traditional FedSun units.

I don't think a Large Variable Speed Pulse Laser (which is only worthwhile within 8 hexes, but really wants you to fight at 4 hexes or less) is a good combination with a Snub-Nose PPC (which wants you to fight at exactly 9 hexes).  Basically, the lack of any sort of synergy between the two main weapons leaves the Enforce III ENF-6NAIS without a clear engagement range at which it is most effective.  I think the Javelin JVN-11D is a better designed mech than the Enforcer III ENF-6NAIS, however the Enforcer's much greater survivability probably makes it a better design overall.  So yeah, its pretty close there, which mini do you think is cooler?

[Darrian Wolffe]

[It's only 2 lances, not 3. At this point, it's the following:

Javelin - slave
Enforcer III - slave
Fennec - master
Thunderbolt - slave
Axman - slave
Axman - slave
Warhammer - slave
Thanatos - slave

Given that list, I'd say we arrange them into lances and roles and see what we end up with.  I'd put them like this:

Fennec - Master.  Long-range Fire Support
Warhammer - Slave.  Medium-range Fire Support
Enforcer III - Slave.  Medium/close-range Fire Support
Thanatos - Slave.  Close-range spotter.

- Master.
Axman - Slave.  Medium-close range fire support and can spot
Axman - Slave.  Medium-close range fire support and can spot
Thunderbolt - Slave.  Medium-close range fire support and can spot


The second lance has no long-range fire support option.  Both the Fennec and the Cyclops can fit that role, but the Cyclops has a better hole-puncher (though only one) and is tougher with its extra armor and standard engine (and has come nice quirks).  Regardless, the Javelin doesn't rationally fit in either C3 lance since both of them are pretty heavy-weight even though the Enforcer isn't all that well-designed- I'd replace that simply based on its durability.

Jon, Mike - can we get both of your opinions?

[serrate]

I personally like the Fennec better than the Cyclops, but Mike's CO, so if anyone gets to cast a tie breaking vote, then its him.  Also, its your mech choice, so your vote outweighs all of ours combined.

Eh, I don't really care that much tbh. These mechs will get blown up and replaced on a semi-regular basis anyway. I'm fine with whatever Mike votes for.

I don't think a Large Variable Speed Pulse Laser (which is only worthwhile within 8 hexes, but really wants you to fight at 4 hexes or less) is a good combination with a Snub-Nose PPC (which wants you to fight at exactly 9 hexes).  Basically, the lack of any sort of synergy between the two main weapons leaves the Enforce III ENF-6NAIS without a clear engagement range at which it is most effective.  I think the Javelin JVN-11D is a better designed mech than the Enforcer III ENF-6NAIS, however the Enforcer's much greater survivability probably makes it a better design overall.  So yeah, its pretty close there, which mini do you think is cooler?

Ah, guess I didn't take a close enough look at the Enforcer's weapons loadout. It doesn't matter much to me which mech I use here, I've got pristine versions of each that need painting. Based on Rob's post, it looks like the Enforcer might fit the lance a little better.

[Death or Glory]

Jon, Mike - can we get both of your opinions?

The two lances look good to me.  As the second lance seems to be designed around brawling and staying power, I think a Cyclops would fit in better with that lance than a Fennec would.

[Riegien]

For whatever reason, the Federated Suns loved putting a C3 slave in damn near everything during the Civil War and Jihad, but never really got around to designing a unit with a C3 master until the Fennec.  Unless I'm forgetting a unit, our C3 master options are pretty much limited to the Avatar, Cyclops, and Fennec.

FedSuns decided to stick most of its masters on semi mobile slabs they called tanks.  Ajax, Manteuffel, Challenger XI, Morningstar, etc.

If we're using Swordsworn and House Davion MWDA minis for faction availability, then lets replace our Cavaliers with Elementals or Purifiers.

As a point here, there are quite a few elementals dinking around in the FedSuns.  They're just earmarked for units that aren't on the ass end of the outback.  Maybe you'll get access to them eventually.

4.  The Firestarter FS9-M3 is at best a GM call.

I'll allow it, but I want confirmation from Steve on the change.

[Darrian Wolffe]

FedSuns decided to stick most of its masters on semi mobile slabs they called tanks.  Ajax, Manteuffel, Challenger XI, Morningstar, etc.

QUESTION!

Can we mix units in lances?  Like having a Lance made up of a Fennec, a Thanatos, and two JES IIs?

Or our Manteuffel, Two Axmen, and a JES II?